Fixing the Leaky Bucket: How We Systematically Improved GRR by Focusing on Prevention, Not Saves

Thank you for the warm welcome. Let me introduce myself a little bit further. As Nicole mentioned, I support Commvault's global customer success organization of more than 250 individuals. We have a global presence with India, Egypt, our Americas team, our UK team, and our APAC team that really spreads the depth and presence of our organization and how we support our customers.

Outside of work, I also am a volunteer firefighter and have a huge influence in the community for us of small to moderate sized volunteer department running about 300 calls a year. Shifting Focus to Commvault, we're a 30 year old company. We just celebrated our anniversary. We offer customers cyber resilience and risk management and help protect their data.

As we focus and shift our customer success model, our goal is to help protect and retain revenue, which is what we're here to talk about today, and make sure that we are continuing to ensure that our board is happy, our investors and all of our stakeholders are happy results and that we are driving towards that sustainability in our model because the cost of customer acquisition is so high. So with that, let me focus on our agenda for this session. First, it's really that discussion of shifting at growth at all costs to how we sustain and retain our customers. Second, we'll focus on the strongest drivers of long-term ROI.

We'll talk about where retention is breaking and how we've identified and focused on fixing some of those moments in time where we've identified the breakage. We'll talk through proactive retention and triggered plays that we've been very intentional about designing. And last, we'll talk through the retention culture and how we make this a team sport and rally around it as an organization. With that, let's jump in.

You've heard a lot about it at Pulse already, shifting that old model of how do we grow faster, how do we continue to acquire new customers to now is, how do we retain what we've already gotten to purchase, those customers that have already procured our solution and make sure that the water isn't flowing out of the bucket. That leaky bucket analogy is what we've used multiple times and coined of how do we stop the flow of water out, we stop having to use the chewing gum and duct tape to hold all those customers in, if you will. And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to be more prescriptive as we grow.

As we look at this, you can hear it, you can see it in the industry, it's a board level priority, it's an executive priority of retaining those customers. We've got an ROI problem here, and this is an area that we can really focus how our customer success organization driving that retention. At Commvault, we're in a unique position, we offer our customers multiple different opportunities to buy a SaaS solution, a consumption based model, our existing software subscription business, that different buying model offers us the flexibility to our customers, but also creates some internal challenges. How do we manage the different models?

How do we unify our customer success foundational models to make sure our customers are supported in the best way possible? That internal complexity maintains that consistent retention outcomes is where we're really focusing. This is where our mindset started to shift though. How do we strategically and fundamentally shift the business?

How do we get our team members to focus on GRR? GRR, we realized that focusing on growth retention wasn't a problem that just started at the time of renewal. Diving catches 30 days before a customer would renew. We realized the problem was much earlier.

We start at the time of purchase. How do we get our customers to onboard faster? How do we get our customers to not stall out in adoption? Those are some of the questions that we started to ask as we heavily focused on this and developed mitigation strategies, developed a plan around how we fix this.

And like many organizations, that dive and catch motion took an exponential amount of resources more than it would to fix the problem upfront, more than it would to fix the plumbing in the system and hold all that chewing gum and duct tape onto our leaky bucket. So instead of asking the question of how we can improve our renewals, we really asked where does the retention actually break? What does it break down across the, where does it break down across the journey? And those are some of those pieces that I mentioned.

And the last piece was identifying and fixing the root causes of turn before the renewal risk ever surfaced. So as we focused on this, part of our quarterly board reports, part of our quarterly internal reviews is really developing a structured approach to understand the churn, developing three separate buckets of how we categorize. So first, I'll talk you through unavoidable turn. You can think of this as customer went bankrupt, M&A activity, other market pressures may fall into that bucket, but those are the things that our customer success owners can't directly influence.

Those are the areas where market dynamics may have gotten the best of those organizations and we can't do a lot to save it. The next piece of this is preventable. This is where our poor onboarding experiences may come in. This is where the customer may not have the right level of adoption of the product.

They also be other areas where they feel like there's a product feature or gap. And the last piece was that influential churn, which really went into things like pricing pressure, product features and gaps, and competitive displacement. And that product features and gaps, I should be more clear on that, that that is really where the customer perceives that we need to develop something. It's not that they aren't using something in the right way and what have you, it's that we need to work with our products team, work on developing that feature, that functionality in the way that that customer wants to use it.

The biggest insight that we gained from all of this was most of our churn is preventable. Most of it is an area that we can focus our energy and our efforts upfront in the customer lifecycle. Early on, from day one after purchase, when we're getting a handoff for sales, when we're working to understand why the customer purchased our solution, and developing that mindset that we can have intentional touch points throughout the journey that are designed to mitigate those renewal risks and help improve our gross revenue retention. The key takeaway to this is you can't effectively fix GRR until you can classify it and really dive into the specific problem that you need to solve.

So after we started classifying our churn, we really started to map this across our journey. We asked some of those questions of where does the momentum stall? We were very intentional and broke down those points where the customers failed to start, where the customers became stuck, where the customers experienced value erosion. So with that said, we really focused on those customers failed to start as our first problem area.

Developed some solutions that have worked well, others that we've had trial and error. So for example, we developed a microservice to help get our customers up and running faster. We've focused on how we can connect the customer to expertise, technical experts that will get them onboarded, get them adopting the product faster and improve from that standpoint. To improve adoption where we see consumption plateau, we've increased visibility into some of the usage patterns.

We focused on some of our internal AI initiative to give better customer insights and really at the speed of AI, if you will, we've developed it so our teams have more tools on their toolbox to solve this more proactively. Again, I'll reiterate, we're not diving and catching 30, 60, 90 days ahead of the renewal. We know nine months ahead, we know six months ahead. We know in these intervals well ahead of the renewal that the customer's not consuming our licensing, not adopting our product fully.

And then the last piece is the value perception. We shifted some of our conversations from speeds and feeds. This is an area that's, it's a fine line for skills development, enablement and where we continue to focus some of our efforts. But it's no longer the speeds and feeds conversation, it's what are the business outcomes you're trying to achieve?

This is an area that I will say will continue to enable and re-enable and re-enable because it takes practice. Takes lots of discussions with our customers. Takes lots of role plays internally. But this is where we're headed to make sure that these conversations that we've really started and seen some positive outcomes will continue to drive our GRR.

As a key takeaway to our leaky bucket that you can see up here, it is really the focus that retention breaks at predictable moments in the customer lifecycle. All of them are well ahead of that renewal and all of them are solvable with specific actions that you can take. We focus on this and realize improving GRR is a marathon. It's not a sprint.

It requires that continuous improvement. It requires the consistent review and look at the data to see how things are going. So we recognize the improvements when we scale without changing the operating model. That is the first piece that is key and critical.

Historically, the organization was designed around coverage, not around impact. We tried to cover as many customers as possible and it wasn't unified. We would have some resources covering our SaaS product, other resources covering our software product. It wasn't unified.

We shifted intentionally to a unified engagement model. We focused on making sure we were covering the right customers, not necessarily all the customers. We introduced multiple engagement motions based off the customer's needs and value. I'll take you through our segmentation in a moment, but really this focus is on developing self-service mechanisms all the way up to a paid success model that we've had a lot of success and industry expertise in building.

And lastly, we focused on automating the low value task and are developing our own internal roadmap to continue to do this as a focused area to continue to improve our GRR. Our key takeaway for this is retention is not driven by broad coverage. It's focused efforts. Retention is driven by focused resources on the right customers and the right accounts.

As I mentioned, I was going to take you briefly through our segmentation model. At the tip of the pyramid, we have our paid success program. That is delivered by technical account managers. But this is the biggest of the big customers.

Think your most strategic household type names. And then as we scale downward, this develops a mechanism for us to utilize and scale out to centers of excellences, where we have resources to help with economies of scale, helps us develop mechanisms to develop scaled motions at the right dollar values, and also, more importantly, as we acquire new products, as we develop new solutions, it really helps us have a unified approach and view of that customer. We're not talking about a SaaS product. We're not talking about a software product.

We're not talking about a consumption model. We're talking about managing the customer as an outcome. Did we reduce their risk? Can they recover their business?

Can they get the value out of what Commvault sells? Our next phase to this journey, as I speak to you today, is really that agentic experience. You've heard a lot about that at Pulse. And we are deeply entrenched in building that agentic flow for our customer success organization, making them more efficient, but also protecting our revenue.

Our key takeaway here is retention is not driven by that broad coverage. It is driven by focused impact, having the right motions, and having the right moments to save the customer and make sure they're getting the business outcomes they purchase your solution for. Next, I'm going to talk to you about the four-legged stool. One of our biggest challenges has been focused on working in silos.

How do you break those silos down? Sure, many of you in the audience have that same problem-- sales versus success versus other parts of the organization. And what we've developed is really a good talk track around what the [AUDIO OUT] stool is-- the account executive, a sales engineer, our customer success teams, and our renewals manager. These team members come together to rally around the customer.

These team members focus on the customer's needs holistically, and it's not about what part of the organization they sit in. Is it perfect? No, but we're working towards that, and we continue to drive that distinction for specific roles and responsibilities with a common shared goal, common financial metrics that they're all compensated against. This helps improve proactivity.

This helps improve risk, and it makes sure that when a deal is sold, that everybody is in the boat together. This provides that strong collaboration, and that team-based spirit is really where I see success with our four-legged stool. So as I focus on closing, fixing the leaky bucket is an area that we have greatly improved. It's an area that we continue to have reflection.

We have forecast calls. We have risk review calls. We have that collaboration between the teams. And we really continue to enhance the operating model for our customer success organization.

We focus on how we can continue to refine and iterate. What's the operational discipline and rigor? How do we continue to enhance our enablement? How do we continue to focus on that unified coverage model?

So while we haven't solved all of the problems, we have made so much progress in the last six to 12 months that some of the items that I mentioned here are great takeaways that you can help implement within your own organization. And the real takeaway is you can't do diving catches. You can't fix churn in the last 30, 60, 90 days before the renewal. You have to start from day one and really drive the problem from the time of purchase with intentional mitigation areas, with intentional areas that you are going to focus like onboarding, like low adoption plays, and making sure that where customers have value erosion, that you can attack those in the right way.

With that, I will move on to questions. [APPLAUSE] Thank you, Cody. Our first question is, how did you get teams to stop treating churn prevention as just a CSM responsibility and start owning the moments where retention risk actually begins? So in multiple ways, I would say first, it is pulling the operating model together.

So everybody has the same common goal, regardless of what part of the organization they sit in. So everybody is effectively targeted on G or R as that component. So that's the first piece. The second piece is really making sure that not only is it a common goal, but that it's a top-down approach.

So it's common communication. Our leadership team is unified in that front. So we have risk review calls. We have calls that the executives are willing to pull everybody together, regardless of what part of the org you're in, to help prevent churn and get in front of it.

You mentioned a dedicated resource for retention. Is that a separate role, or what does that profile look like, and when are they pulled in? Yeah, so from a retention perspective, we have our customer success owners. That's a CSM or TAM.

We've used the customer success owner agnostically. I don't want to say it's a dedicated role by any means, but it is a role focused specifically on our customers. Those folks are throughout the entire life cycle from day one through the renewal. In addition, we have our renewals coordinators, renewals managers that really focus on the commercial aspects at the time of renewal.

So we hand off 120 days before the renewal to get the quotes and get it through the system and make sure that we're attacking it from that perspective. What's one early risk signal that looked important at first, but turned out not to be predictive enough to act on? That's a good one. We've had a lot of review, and I would say some of our engagement stats were where some of the initial data was poor, and I would say that that's a lot of the operational risk that we're missed.

I think that that's a stat that while on the surface, we haven't had great data. I think it could be more valuable to us, but with the initial review of it, we didn't take away very much of, "Hey, are they talking to customers? Is that driving a renewal?" And part of that, like I said, it's driving the operational rigor so we can have better correlation of that data and how it directly impacts us. Next question is, "We often find customers are very short with us about why they're churning.

How hard do your CSMs push to get more details? And do you have any tips to successfully get that info to help with future churn analysis?" Great question. This one is definitely a sensitive one. We've seen our customer success teams really struggle with how deep into the weeds they can get the details.

Part of it's relationship-based. Is the customer comfortable with them or not? Part of it is also the review of, do they know the right discovery questions? Do they know what to ask?

So I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly with getting this data. I would say this is an area that we don't push overly aggressively today. It's an area that we need to improve on to continue to iterate. But I think it's a lot of the soft skills.

It's those areas that we can improve how the CSM questions the customer and how they have that dialogue so it doesn't come across overly pushy, but it's informational for us as they develop that up. What was the GRR impact of these efforts? So from a GRR impact perspective, I can't share specific percentages, but in certain segments of our business, it was multi-point overall, and we made pretty decent progress. When you mentioned you classified churn into preventable, influensible, and unavoidable, what is the difference between preventable and influensible?

Great question. So the influensible are things that are outside of the direct control of a customer success team members. So these are our teams having to work with another team. So pricing, for example, or having to work on the customer believes we have a feature gap, we don't support X, Y, or Z.

So having to work with another team, whereas preventable is, hey, they own the solution, they aren't consuming enough, let's build a plan around how they're going to get it to be consumed. How do they protect the existing workloads that they need to protect and mitigate their risks? What kind of playbooks did you initiate and how? From a playbook standpoint, we've really initiated low consumption playbooks.

We were very intentional about being product specific on those so we could give specific steps, specific instructions, and how we develop and shape our playbooks. We've worked with our field leaders to make sure as we rolled that out that they could work with our teams. And then as we did some trial and error with that, we continue to iterate and refine some of the playbook design and what have you. These will be things that we'll continue to refine and we'll continue to build upon.

So it's not a one and done with playbooks. This is one of those areas that's every quarter we have to review at the end of the quarter. Do we have the right playbooks? Do we have the right plays for the team as we develop and build these out and retrospectively review?

I like this next question. I like the shared objective approach across CS, Renewal Manager, AE, and SE. In our org, there are silo issues across these teams. What are some approaches or strategies you would call out to ensure alignment internally so we have a coordinated effort?

So first off on this one, getting the leadership top down in the room together is probably the biggest thing. So everybody at the top is resonating and resounding around the same message. So that shared goal is communicated. The second piece is really to make sure that as an organization, you're explaining the why.

That's where we've really done a lot of deep dives with our renewals business, with our customer success business, and our sales business to really pull them in together to say the why GRR is important. And we continue to say that over and over and over to reiterate that importance. But bringing the leaders together, bringing the people together around that common message has been our biggest logistical piece that has brought the teams together better than any other way that we've tried in the past. It's not about team building.

It's not about other aspects. It's really having that common goal and having that top down approach from the leadership. (clears throat) How do you balance churn when it's influenced by increase in the price of the product? We are told we need to show value.

However, if the value is not acknowledged by the customer, despite of a team effort, how will you prevent the customer from churning? From a pricing perspective and product, that one's a difficult one to solve for. Products are becoming increasingly commoditized. Look at the AI market where you have six, eight, 10 AI solutions that can do similar things.

I think at some point you have to lean on what's the relationship? What's the length of time that they've been a customer? Do you have executive engagement? Have you done road mapping sessions with the customer?

Those are some of the areas that we've really touched on is making sure that it's the road mapping that we're getting in front of the right people at the customer, not just an end user admin, but are we in front of the executives? And sometimes the executives will determine that the cost of switching is higher than the cost of staying where they're at. So it's probably multimodal, it's multiple steps, it's multiple different areas to help make sure that we don't have a customer churn. How do you align compensation across the four-legged stool?

Do your account executives have a GRR component to their comp? Great question. Our account executives do have a GRR component to their comp, as do our customer success managers for their bonuses and what have you. So by having that, that's where we're seeing a better together philosophy because of everybody being around that same goal and what have you.

How do you align A, E, S, E, and C, S? So what we've actually created is by sales region, we've created a pod structure. And that pod structure is meant to bring them together. It's meant to have them align within their sales region with their sales territory to have them as unified as possible.

So as much as you can get overlap with individual AEs, SEs, CS, it helps. That way they're not having to work with 10 or 12 different people, but one CSM, one AE, one SE from a geographical alignment, from an organizational alignment has helped the best. There's relationship building and there's consistency built with that teamwork. In churn analysis, what data and factors do you prioritize to identify users who are likely to churn?

So we're doing a lot of sentiment analysis. So our customer success managers are putting a high, medium, and low in for sentiment, especially in our larger customers. Outside of that, we're looking at our overall health score for the customer. A lot of that is driven by, our largest weighting is our product consumption.

So are they adopting? Are they using? That is our number one indicator of churn, whether it be dollar or whole customer churn at Commvault. Which are the key engagements that drive retention?

Can you please provide some examples? Yeah, so some of our key engagements that drive retention, I'll give some examples, especially from our paid success model, where we have our technical account managers deeply entrenched with those customers. So some of those engagements are really those strategy conversations. Mr.

and Mrs. Customer, is your data protected? Can you recover your data? Our job as a cyber resiliency company is to make sure that their business will stay online or come back online if they're ever hit with an attack.

Another example to that is our quarterly business reviews. So are we getting the right people in there in the room to have the review? And if so, then usually those are high value activities that really drive positive outcomes. It really drives those project discussions of where the customer is trying to go.

What does successful onboarding look like? And what data signals would you use between onboarding and activation to say the customer is healthy and ready to move to the next phase? Great question. From an onboarding perspective, successful onboarding is getting the customer up and running within the first 30 days after purchase.

That's first and foremost, that's table stakes. The second piece to driving success is really we set internal consumption thresholds. Did we get the customer to 30% or beyond within that 30 days? And that's really what our success looks like.

So really building it into two key metrics. One, did we hit the 30 day milestone and two, did we get them over 30% consumption? Was there ever any consideration given to providing enterprise customers with both a CSM and a TAM? We're currently deciding between both the CSM and TAM or just TAM for our highest value customers and would love your insight.

This is the great debate that is ongoing right now. We intentionally did not assign both a CSM and a TAM the last review that we had. And the specific reason is that our TAMs, we run a one to six ratio on average for our customers. So each TAM's only got six customers so they're deeply entrenched.

Our CSMs run at a much higher number of customers that they're servicing. So really the immersive experience that we can provide as well as are these resources gonna be competing for a customer's time? Was our other concern and having that one throat to choke if you will was something that was meaningful for us. And then the last piece was we started to do financial modeling.

What's our cost to serve if we have both a TAM and a customer success manager aligned to that customer? So in short, our operational efficiency with just having a single resource was improved. It was more cost-effective and we felt like from a customer perspective, it was actually more simplistic. Now when I said we're in the process of reviewing and having discussions again, we're trying to make sure our most strategic customers, for example, do they have the right model?

Did we miss on the model? So on and so forth. So I think it's one of those areas that we have to continuously review, especially in the age of AI and in the age of efficiency gains and depending on what your customer base is to make sure that you're looking at it in the right way. We probably do that whiteboarding exercise once a year, it seems like, to make sure we've got the right resource to the right skill sets attached to our customers.

Are any of your playbooks fully automated or does CSMs always need to take manual action even with long tail customers? Great question. So today our playbooks that we've got are not to the point that they're fully automated yet. This is an area that we've got a lot of development work, especially we're focused on our customers that are actively stalled and onboarding.

How can we do more outreach and automate that fully? And then our AI initiatives are the other piece where as we get consumption peaks and valleys, as we get them to plateau and they're not adopting, those are the areas that we're looking to fully automate first. But having that foundational playbook, having all the manual steps laid out is the most important thing that we've identified as we're planning and we're building that automation to get that rolled out early next quarter, or late this quarter as we develop some of those pieces and parts out. And we're taking a crawl walk run approach to getting them automated, especially in the long tail segment where we've got thousands of customers and we can't service with the humans.

Are the CSM team presented as a value add or are they a monetized offering that is incorporated by sales into the deal? Great question, that's a mix. So some deals that the sales team does position them as a monetized offering. Our monetized offering is technically a technical account manager though, but we synonymously use it as a customer success owner.

From the perspective of does the sales team also present the CSM as a value add for our lower end customers, the customers that don't pay quite as much that they're gonna fund it, they absolutely do. And it's an area that we've seen really good progress with that CSM being that trusted advisor for the customer and really helping them achieve their outcomes. Great question. What does your CSM or TAM own versus your renewal manager?

Assuming CSMs are still communicating with these customers for the renewals themselves. From a CSM and TAM perspective and the way that we've developed our roles and responsibilities, CSM and TAM, their primary objective six months before the renewal is to do complete risk assessment. And then they have to manage the risk all the way up until the renewal to make sure any technical risk, any product adoption issues, any executive engagement, the customer success owner, whether it be the TAM or the CSM, is working to address that. Where the renewals manager comes in and is immensely important is really the commercial aspects, pricing, negotiation, and working with the distributor, working with the partner.

Those are the areas where we've really divided. So really, if you think of it more simplicitely, it's more of the technical and outcomes focused versus the commercial aspects of how we're transacting. Did you align comp plans amongst the account teams that help drive the shared objectives? We absolutely did align those comp plans as we strategically looked at it to really just focus on the GOR metric between our shared teams.

Can you talk about the churn reason capture process? Who is responsible and how is it governed? And do you capture downsell and full churn? Great question.

So this is an area that in the last six months or so we've really evolved significantly. Our data warehouse team is immensely important in this, and that data is all plugged into GainSight. And then based off of the data that we have, here's all my renewals that are coming up, here's all the data there, our customer success teams have a dependent pick list option there so we can get, hey, it's a competitive reason. And then from there we can get to what competitor and we can drill down to that level.

This is where the question that came up before, getting the right level of detail, getting it as granular as we do like, getting our customers to answer us, that we're struggling a little bit with that, but we've got a data capture process built into GainSight. And then from a governance perspective, post end of quarter, we perform a review, we simplify it, try to break it into the three buckets, and then we develop action plans around that. How do you keep prevention motions from becoming just more work for CSMs, especially when they are already under pressure to save renewals? From a prevention's motion perspective, it's really about the weekly risk review meetings, it's about our forecast cadence.

That way we're not having to focus on hundreds and thousands of customers, it's really focused on the prioritization of those motions so it's much more intentional. In addition, we're trying to be more programmatic, and this is where, hey, we're gonna buck it into all the onboarding issues, so we can try to have one big solve for those and not have to have it as death by a thousand cuts for a CSM. Do you get a post-mortem churn conversations with customers through a third party? We do not have a post-mortem churn conversation through a third party.

How can you influence cultural change if the company in general doesn't appreciate the importance of GRR? So from a cultural change perspective, this is purely my opinion, I think really getting the Bain & Co. articles, the McKinsey articles, getting the importance in some of those industry metrics is probably one of your most important things. I've seen us take a lot of the industry metrics and use them for business case, use them for why things are important, and that's an area where we've had some success.

The second piece has been really the communications internally. So we hold monthly success hours. We are starting a biweekly extended leadership call for all of our managers up within the customer success org. We have a weekly field leaders call for all of our theater leads, within the theaters.

So really communication, over-communicate, repetition, micro-learnings, those are some of the areas that I would say in addition to some of the industry stats around that importance and how it is beneficial to the company and what have you. What specific efforts are being made to visualize user usage patterns? I think that's a good question. What are the biggest areas of user usage patterns?

From an efforts to visualize the usage patterns, our biggest area here is that we're working with our data operations team. And the goal is to really centralize the data so we have one source of truth and don't have multiple, pulling in our product data, pulling in our sales force data, so on and so forth. So we've got it pulled in in that unified way and don't have it disjointed. And then after we send it there, we can send it back to our data in for the CSMs so they can see that natively in Gainsight.

The last piece to this is we're taking a genteck feel so we're working on our own adoption and churn agent and we're really focused on an agent that's specific to the journey, that way proactively as things come up, we can identify those usage patterns with AI. Did any of the churn reasons or flags you came up with turn into chances for upsell or expansion opportunities? Absolutely, we've had many of those opportunities turn into, we're not using a specific component or a specific license type. Let's shift that into another solution in that the customer is gonna get more value.

An area that the customer may have a little bit more risk or an area that we can unlock at some other potential. So we've identified that quite a bit. That's an area that I would say we continue to need to refine as we enable the teams and it's probably largely an enablement piece, a communication and a playbook piece on how we bring those things together to continue to enhance. Probably our last question.

To what extent were there preventable issues because of gaps in the playbooks versus not adhering to the playbooks already written? I would say that it's probably 60% were due to gaps in the playbooks. One of our challenges with our operating model has been the lack of unification of some of our playbooks that we've really tried to pull in. So one team would have a playbook for doing something one way, another team would have it another way and trying to bring all the regions into a global standardized process.

That way we can automate more. That way we can have it ready for AI. Whereas for example, our APAC team may have been doing it one way. Our UK team may have been doing it a completely different way and that's posed some challenges for us with how we scale and then how we do the postmortem reviews and how we coach our teams appropriately.

Do this last question. Are the CSM and TAMs, the operational organization or separated? That's a great question. So our CSMs and our TAMs are part of the same overarching organization.

That's been that way for roughly two years and we've been very intentional about bringing them together to really shift in the mindset. We don't wanna have speeds and feeds or the phrase that I've coined that some may laugh at is the nerd herd. We don't wanna have that nomenclature. We want everybody to really be focused on those customer outcomes and making sure that the customers are getting the most value out of the product.

So with that said, we've put them all in the same functional group. So all 250 of the individuals, it's a mix of CSMs and TAMs and our shared services resources that we've put to support those resources. Thank you, Cody. Thank you.

(audience applauding)